There is no other way to put it, writers get paid shit. Erotica writers get paid even less shit.
At present, a writer of a short, say 4,000 word, story gets approximately $50 for the story. This works out at about 1 cent a word. Does that seem like the wrong way to work out a value? How about this: it takes me about 30 hours from initial inspiration to polished completion to write a 4K story (It may be that I’m a slow writer, or a fast one. I don’t know). About $1.5 per hour. 1/3 of the minimum wage in most western countries.
It has been said that the reason for this is because there is so much freely available erotica that the intrinsic value of a piece is very low. This may indeed be a contributing factor, but long before the internet was around, erotica writers still got paid shit.
It could also be said that writers value being published in print so much that they are willing to get paid very little in the hopes of seing themselves in print.
It might also be that our society is still uncomfortable with the consumption of explicit written material, and that this skews the marketplace. People might want to read erotica, but they don’t want to slap a dirty book down at the checkout counter. They’d rather consume their erotica secretly.
The bean counters would say, as evidenced by the summary folding of Black Lace, that there is no market.
Literary critics would say that, in an attempt to ensure good sales, erotica publishers began to only accept work that was so formulaic, they killed their own market.
I don’t have an answer for this dilemma. But clearly something is not being understood. Clearly there IS a demand for good explicit writing, and there are good writers to produce it. But social conventions, inflated profit expectations, and a general undervaluing of creative labour are all contributing to a disconnect between the producer and the consumer.
I propose that we need to find another way to evaluate the relative worth of erotic writing. I’m not sure what that way would be, but the one we currently have is not working. And perhaps it is because we have been brainwashed into thinking the only valuation that matters is financial.
I, and I suspect most writers, feel as if the process of writing is not complete until the work is read by a reader. So, for my part, I prefer to be read than to be paid.
Readers, for their part, seem to be very happy to consume erotic writing, but don’t seem so inclined to pay for it. An erotic story may excite them, may linger in their minds for a long time. May play a material part in their own sexual fantasies, or in their erotic lives with others. And yet, we don’t really feel it’s worth anything.
This is why I feel that I have a right to demand comments off my readers. I write the work, you consume it. I feel that I am owed something: your feedback, your comments. And, to be fair, I get a lot of comments from readers and I feel fairly remunerated for my efforts.
However, if you’re one of those people who never comment when you go and read erotica on people’s sites, might I suggest that you do. We spend a lot of time on our work, and you get the fruits of it for free. Please consider, at least, expending the effort of acknowledging that you have consumed the story, and enjoyed it (or not, as the case may be). For a great many of us, just the proof that someone has read it means a lot. It isn’t a living, but it’s something valuable, nonetheless.
That is just SO spot on. xx
I’m a newbie to your site, but this was a fantastic post. And you’re absolutely right…it takes less time to comment on a story than it does to read it. You go, girl! Demand away! You’re worth it!
Hey darlin’,
You know I love your stuff, and thank you for the lusty links as well. /It’s true, I do not comment often. Sometimes this is due to sort of having to hide the fact I’m reading ‘this’ material(kid in the house), other times I feel I do not even have the talent to put together a decent note, but fk, who wants decent????, also, my equipment and service sucks, esp. currently.
Hmmm, I did send you a ‘Season’s Greeting’s’ IM, right?
Thanks for facilitating our getting into Monocle’s and Redbud’s Elevator stories. I’ve not commented to them, but guys (?) if you see this, I really enjoyed, much different feelings induced by each of them. Redbud, and no offence to Rgirl ‘n’ Monocle, I ‘felt’ more from yours.
I’ve likely ranted to you, Rgirl, about how I’m so tired of society’s conventions, esp. monogamy ‘rules’ in relationships. If not for the escape in some hot stories and my somewhat limited ‘chat life’ I think there could be violence due to various frustrations in marriage. I have to follow too many rules at work. A girl’s gotta have some room to stretch her’self’.
As to ‘pay’, it is truly unfair that you people get so little in return for all the heavy mind-work necessary to put a comfortably flowing story together. I have difficulty reading poor quality smut…frankly, I’m put off by words like ‘dirty’ and ‘smutty’ in relation to well-written erotica.
My guys aren’t on and it’s midnight. These may be my parting words for today.
(Rgirl, excuse the punctuation errors, some, as I’m sure you can guess, are intentional.)(What’s that they say about commas? lol)
Goodnight, girl, and goodnight to all others who happen to read this. If there’s any interest out there in sharing some words w an erotica junkie I can be reached (IM or email) as (at) sleepy_n_ns@yahoo.com
Hey Nancy, I’ll reply here in thanks to you, but also to RG for your insight. As a writer interested more in readers than material rewards (though those never hurt), you hit many nails on the head. Will’s and my blog is far less frequented, but the comments we get are really the bread and butter of the whole venture.
well said, rg.
oh…purr. Nuff said.
Amen.
I’ve spent a fair amount of time wondering about payment for erotica and wandered through most of the answers to ‘why is it so poor?’ that you cover. At the same time, I’ve wondered how anyone in publishing will make money as we transition to a digital world where piracy is trivially easy and the consumers expect their music, movies, and books to be free. Advertising isn’t going to pay for it all…
…and the kicker is, payment covers more than establishing valuation. I have true financial costs in running my website, even if I consider my time to be free. The only way I can pay those right now is because I’m lucky in what my day job provides. But I’m often too aware of the drain…
As a result, reader comments are indeed one of the few rewards for the effort. Certainly one of the few non-internal rewards and I don’t need to release my stories to the world to get those emotional and psychological benefits.
So in the end, I don’t have much to say other than I share the frustration and the questions.
Thanks for the post.
crapp, everything creative has more or less the same problems, what is wrong in this world?! I was thinking about your new post, and I have to apologize, cause I enjoy a lot your work, and love your podcast, but I haven’t been very “feedbacky” about it, hon. It is no excuse, but I feel that sometimes, my lack of this is cause I don’t think that here, or Latin America, there is a erotica literature, culture, at least that I know about, and I’m not prude or someone that doesn’t love to read, but since I’ve met you I’ve been wondering where are the erotica writers here, and it seems, they aren’t… So, in a second apology, I have to say, that is even worst, cause I haven’t even thank you for being my first approach to this kind of writing and reading, and hearing!! Of course it’s no justification, but also I didn’t have idea something like this was happening, and I hope things will change soon for the best, or we can start a revolution of creative people, write and photograph them to dead, hehehe!
You writing is wonderful, I love your work, and I thank you for it! I know that being a newbie won’t make me a good critique writer, also having my grammar, spelling, etc, as bad as they are, (sometimes that’s another reason to leave feedback) but yes, as least I can thank you for being able to read your work, and say that I always enjoy it!
XOXOX
Funnily enough, one of the most inspirational eroticist for me was a Latin American. Octavio Paz. Plus I think a lot of Latin American writers embed a great deal of eroticism into their fiction. They’re all around you, in fact, Uvita. Huggles and thanks for commenting. Your English is magnificent, muchacha.
Thank you for writing. I value what you write.
And thank you for commenting and saying that you do! Lovely!
I found your website from another website – as an author looking for inspiration. After I found you – I scoured your work. You write beautiful characterisations…the likes of which I can only *hope* to compare.
For me, as a reader, I’m new to the genre of erotic lit. I got curious about it – because I was curious about my own writing. How far could I go? I think my imagination is somewhat limited. Yours is not. As for purchasing, some of –the lack of purchasing — would be that it’s hard to explain. I’m a mom of 4, happily married to a non-romantic. How to explain my sudden interest in erotica??
I thoroughly enjoy your work. And hope you keep writing!
Well, I’m glad you found me, ALA. Welcome to the genre. If I had once piece of advice to you it would be something passed on from Hemingway: write the truest thing you know. I think he meant what feels truest in your gut, not something factual. I don’t think that imagination enters into it as much as honesty does. I think, inside, if we dig, we are all twisty enough to come up with erotic stories for the rest of our lives. The question is: can you look there, and can you be honest, and can you write it in a way that will resonate to readers?
I think erotica is a frustrating medium for a writer. I wouldn’t make erotica a large part of my writing life and I have had erotica published. You’re right, it pays rubbish and not only that and the quality of erotica varies from one writer to the next as well as from one anthology editor to the next. Some anthologies are great, in the sense of their story content and other anthologies are ruined by terrible stories.
The other thing I wanted to say, is that many erotica writers on the web, with websites, tend to want reader feedback on their blogs instead of looking at the examples of other writers who don’t request reader feedback in blogs.
Financial evaluation isn’t the be all and end all, but I think it’s quite valid to have decent financial payment for stories. They take more time and intellectual input than working in a call center and giving standard responses. The way I see it, some editors take a huge payment, and distribute a tiny amount to authors. But there are editors who are more generous than the standard fifty dollar payment.
At best, erotica writing for anthologies is like a hobby for me. I look toward writing more mainstream stories as erotica can be so restricting as a genre. After all the current stories tend to have only sexual themes and that makes it limiting. Erotica is seldom a profitable market. Sure, it may be profitable for some…usually controversial non-fiction, the usual escort tales (which are becoming tedious), the sex blog/turned book (which is also becoming boring). I think one of the reasons why erotica isn’t as profitable as romance is because of the sexual explicitness. Other writers may not appreciate that observation, but that is what it all boils down to. It doesn’t matter how many sex expos unfold around the world, marketing sex stories isn’t easy for large publishers.
You make some great points, NA. However, I disagree with you that erotica is a restrictive genre. I think the erotica that is currently being published, on the whole, would imply that it’s a restrictive genre, but in fact, that is not the case. Humans live explicit lives. For me erotica is not so much about sex as about desire and exposure of the inner self through desire.
I think there are some great editors and anthologists out there. I think there are a few, very few, good publishers who LOVE the genre and can see the potential scope of it.
Right now I think the publishing industry as a whole is going through a great upheaval and perhaps we won’t know its outcome for a while. But for now, I think a lot of publishers are being run by bean counters who are sure that publishing yet another version of a formulaic piece of crap that sold well for them once. And the damage they are doing to cultural industries across many media is killing them.
Look, I don’t want to be polemic, as I’m referring to my experiences as well here, but I will say that it is definitely restricting when you’re told, as a writer, that your story won’t do because one editor disagrees from a small group of editors who thought differently. I’ve had that experience: a story being left out of an anthology at the last minute because it was too ‘far reaching’ than the usual erotic tale, so yes, when I say restricting, it is – for me -a restriction. If I have to essentially rewrite sex scenes straight from a porn film and use different locations, then it’s not worth writing and I do read many anthologies, because I review erotic anthologies, and most stories are not written well. By that, I mean that the storyline or plot does not really logically go together. For example, I recently read your short story in Cleis’s vampire anthology, and you depict a wealthy vampire who has to fly across to Europe from Asia and back to settle finances, but logically, if a character is uber wealthy, that means that they don’t have to do that and vampires – according to fictional lore – have centuries to add to their wealth, or enough time to run rings around Bill Gates. A competent editor would have said something about that discrepancy in your story. Sure, it’s a little detail, which has nothing to do with the quality of the writing (sentences, words, etc) but still, for me – as a reader (because writers should also be readers) – that doesn’t really fit.
Publishers do have to be bean counters and profit essentially enables them to sign up more writers. I’ve worked for two, and it’s always about the profit in the end because that pays for future publications and staff, as well as writers, and this is something that does affect the erotic genre. There aren’t many people reading erotica as there are reading Dan Brown. That’s how it is, but even so, there is a lot of formulaic crap erotica out there just as there are editors who’ll only publish writers who suck up to them. At the end of the day, it’s all about sales. The Dan Browns and J K Rowlings enable more new writers to be published.
I’ve noticed in the comments that you’ve also poo-pooed the position of the reader. Readers are important. I’m not saying that stories should be shaped in anticipation of the reader, but they do play a role. For example, if readers like a particular author’s work as well as the associated genre and that author decides to switch genres, then that may not work. If Stephen King switched to Mills and Boon slop-romance, readers wouldn’t be happy, and it doesn’t matter what the writer’s ego thinks. If readers don’t matter, then don’t gripe about the lack of funds, publish via Lulu or similar. I think writers lose out the minute they publish their stories for free on their blogs.
This post interested me, because I’d be as frustrated with erotica as a medium and a market but now, I see it for what it is. It’s not a perfect genre, and to be frank 80% of the anthology editors (online and in print) are complete egotistical wankers who think too highly of themselves and if they worked for larger publishers, like Random House, they’d be cut down to size. It’s simply not enough for an editor just to have a web presence and a small circle of sycophants. That doesn’t translate to sales and unfortunately that is what is also hurting erotica.
> for some reason, WP has a limit to its ability to thread comments and replies: my response to you has ended up at the bottom of the page, if you’d care to read it. – RG
Hello Not Anais
Regarding your opinions on the flaws in Midnight at Sheremetyevo, I modeled their behaviour on the habits of rather old fashioned people. Old people tend to be very careful about their money and often dislike the idea of handling it at a distance. They like to look the person who is taking care of their money face to face. And my vampires are, if anything, very old people with some very old habits. I think it’s fair to say you don’t like the conventions I’ve used for my vampires, but the nice thing about writing about non-existence creatures is that one isn’t bound to the conventions of the writers who came before. My vampires have very human foibles.
I respect your opinion on the subject of publishers. Nonetheless, their model is clearly not working. They’re having a terrible time, financially.
As to your accusation that I ‘poo-poo’ my readers – that I take deep exception to. And it surprises me that you have come to the conclusion that I do. I’m not sure I understand how you arrived at it. I see readers as so integral to my process as a writer that I would much rather be read than be paid. I have a far greater readership on the net than I could ever expect if I limited myself to print publishing only. I gather from the content of your paragraph you feel I shouldn’t be posting my work for free on my blog and this has annoyed you. I can’t help you with that. The world is changing and, as I have said in this post, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate the way we determine the value cultural product.
I’m not going to address your clear dislike some of anthology editors. I don’t know who you’re talking about and you haven’t named them, so I can’t comment. I can only say that the editors I have dealt with have all been extremely fair with me. Even to the point where I have completely agreed with an editor’s exclusion of my story from an anthology – he made exactly the right call. The story simply wasn’t suitable. If there were a place to lay the blame for the shocking state of the erotica genre today, it would certainly NOT be at the doorstep of the editors I’ve come into contact with. They are, at least, people who love erotica and erotic writing – and often they are writers themselves. They, at least, are not bean counters.
And before you accuse me of being one of those ‘sycophants’, you need to know that I have not, in the past 4 years, submitted a single story to any anthology. The stories that I have had published were found by the editors and asked for. I did not solicit their inclusion. I think that pretty well lets me off the hook as a sycophant.
That is a very fair request. I must admit to often reading and not commenting. Although sometimes it does seem lame to be the 12th person to say how awesome a story is, when you have absolutely no other comment to add. However since you make such a compelling argument, that acknowledgement that the story has been read and enjoyed is worth something to the writer, I will try to be a more frequent commenter in the future.
Just find the one thing you DON’T like about the story, and comment on that. Those kind of comments are incredibly helpful. Huggles, Reece
Oh, I’m glad you find them helpful. I feel so bad sometimes about pointing out flaws when as a whole your work is so magnificent!
Never, never feel bad about pointing out the flaws. The fact that, as a writer, I am growing and becoming better is as a direct result of well-considered, constructive criticism. And you are brilliant at it, Nana. Hugs. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it.
*Reads with appreciation, then slips out quietly as usual.
Good Day RG. I didnt realize the pay was that bad. Thats almost a crime in my eyes. I know I have told you this before, but I am happy to say again how much I love your work and your commitment to it. You have become my absolute favorite writer. I feel like I am a part or your stories and can close my eyes and be in the scene. I love you girl. Marry me please.
Waterguy
But you my dear have richly repaid me and often with your comments. And regarding the proposal of matrimony: No. Heave a great sigh of relief, Scott. You’ve just had a narrow escape from a fate worse than death. And you can love me just as well without all the ridiculous peripherals. *grin*
Thank you for the post. As you’re probably aware, this debate has been going on in other genres as well recently. FWIW, I take as long as you, if not longer, to write a short story, and so I try not to think about the hourly rate. I, like many writers, have a day job in addition to the long, long hours I put in on my fiction.
Some people think the solution is to write faster, but I know that makes my quality suffer. One problem I see is that there isn’t enough reward for being truly great.
Reading erotic stories by writers like you, RG, has helped to change and heal me. Sex is a dark, complicated, lovely, essential part of human experience, and I could never have predicted the power of reading unflinching explorations of it.
I know many literary writers who labor over their work, and don’t get paid at all for it, even when they publish. It’s hard to know the solution to any of this.
Lastly, I’ll add that your requests for comments have slowly forced me out of my shell, but it’s taken time. I started out as a lurker, and it’s taken several years to get over the sense of shame and fear I felt at first about reading erotica. I just couldn’t have commented at the beginning. It wasn’t until I gained some courage after reading for several years that I could speak up about these things. I’ve pushed myself to slowly do more, buying erotic e-books online, and lastly, books in physical stores. I suppose my point is that as a reader I started out afraid and uncertain, and that made it hard for me to support the erotica writers who mean so much to me. Because my culture, anyway, has so many hangups about sex, I suspect there are others like me.
I’ve gone on a long time, and I’m not sure if I’ve managed a conclusion. I suppose the most important thing to say is thank you.
RG, I understand your frustration. You, in particular, write such polished prose that it is always a pleasure to read it. I confess I find your poetry obscure to my untutored taste, but both your ironic and erotic work I find delightful. I’ve told you that before.
So why don’t I put my hand in my pocket?
You touched one reason; that there is so much fair to good erotica available, it becomes a devalued commodity. Another might be the potential for embarrassment over payments made for what is often an illicit pleasure.
I think there is another reason which probably applies in my case. As a Northern European, I balance every request for payment against the value offered – yes, even for minor purchases.
In buying a book, one spends a few seconds evaluating the potential pleasure of reading it, against the price. In reading on-line, the pleasure has been obtained, and then the question of a “tip” arises — no, I don’t think so. Yes, for a good story, a few lines of a compliment, but I don’t come from a tipping culture. I find the tipping transaction demeaning on both parties. So, reading a good story on-line and not paying anything is more akin to finding you’ve been given too much change from the last transaction. A moment’s guilt, and onward.
Back to my comment about paying for value ahead, I DO pay subs to such sites as SOL and Flickr, where experience shows the value of the payment.
Your frustration is shared by The Times, the FT and other newspapers. The Economist has written at length on the subject. So it is not just erotica what fails to earn an adequate return in the new business model of the Internet.
Don’t get discouraged. We do appreciate your efforts.
Well Peter, I didn’t ask you to pay me. I asked you to comment. Will you do that, or is the value I’ve offered not worth it? That’s the question, isn’t it?
Writing always has been more a labor of love, not a good way to earn money. I’m sure that doesn’t make it much easier though.
I suspect part of the reason writers are paid so poorly is that it’s just inherently hard for buyers to know what they’re getting in advance. This is doubly true for erotica: all of your writing is brilliantly executed, everyone has pieces that just don’t work for them, because erotica is such an individual taste.
Most things we buy, we buy the same thing over and over, but we buy a new book each time. We might be pleasantly surprised, get about what we expected, or be horribly disappointed. The old solution was to bundle things up into anthologies, magazines, and newspapers, but those have their problems too.
I hope you keep writing though.
You make some really excellent points, MPL. You wrote: “it’s just inherently hard for buyers to know what they’re getting in advance” But tell me…when did we become so hard to bore? When did we become so unwilling to indulge in a little adventure. When did we demand to know the ending before we started? I think that as consumers, slowly but surely, we have been brainwashed into believing that we should always know exactly what we’re getting. After all, that makes it just SO MUCH EASIER to sell shit to us.
But here’s the funny thing: the whole fiction publishing industry is suffering hugely. So clearly the ‘give people exactly what they want’ tactic is not working either.
When I get into bed with someone, the last thing I want to know is exactly what they’re going to do.
That’s just the problem isn’t it—predictable candy bar good, predictable fiction bad. Probably that’s the reason that visual porn is such big business: doing the same thing with different performers adds just enough variety to keep the audience entertained, but doesn’t risk doing something they’ll hate.
Actually, interestingly enough, I think the rise in popularity of amateur porn grew specifically out of the fact that even in porn, people get bored with the predictable.
Thank you so much for tying together the two issues of money and comments. I never would have thought of it like that, but of course you are right. These are different methods by which a reader parts with something (a few dollars, a few seconds, a few words) to indicate that what you gave was of some value, whether potential in the case of purchase or after the fact with a comment.
In some ways, the greatest reward is a really thoughtful comment, one which adds something to my mind’s conversation with itself as I wrote. A bit of payment in kind.
Your words are especially apt for me right now as I try to write a story specifically in hopes of getting it published. In an anthology. In print. On paper. Something I can hold in my hand, if not show to my mother, and say look, I did this, someone thought my thoughts worthy of memorializing in a probably disappearing tangible form. And wouldn’t it be nice, since I do write and can’t live on what I make at my more respectable job, to receive a few dollars for my efforts?
I was stunned to find out exactly how few those dollars might be. Especially as I remember the $100 I received 10 years ago for a fairly short magazine article.
Still, I’m proceeding with the project. Maybe it’s the submissive in me, longing to be tossed a monetary “Good girl.”
Right after I read your post, and while contemplating what to respond, I took a quick look at my stats. They were fairly low for last night – I haven’t put anything up in over 2 days. But someone had been there who really liked my stuff. Liked my stuff enough to spend 23 minutes yesterday evening looking at 169 pages, and then returning very early this morning to spend 57 minutes on 201 pages.
And what did I get for this?
Bupkes. Goat dung. Less than nothing. Without the electronic surveillance cameras of site meter I would not even know this person had been there.
It would have killed you to have left your calling card on the silver tray by the door? With a little note, maybe to say hi, you moved me, I came 5 times, the butterflies were pretty…
I feel raped.
This comment is too long. I feel tempted to delete it and publish it over at my place, but you deserve to know how much your writing affected me. As it always does. The comments section is your tip jar and I’m stuffing in a wad of twenties.
As always, thank you.
I’m glad you didn’t delete it. However, I’d also like to ask you to consider that perhaps having a story accepted for publication is not the validation we should be seeking. Because quite honestly, a lot of the stuff accepted for publication is, IMO which is not humble, often poor quality, rehashed, cliched crap.
In fact, RG, I agree with your opinion on much published erotica. I assembled quite a collection during a long, desperate phase, but once I started living some of it, and writing more of it, I realized my own stuff was better than most of it.
Part of trying to get published is connected with the sadist’s efforts to make me a more productive and disciplined writer. More organized. Schedules, outlines, the sort of thing I never do. A submission deadline makes for a good extra incentive. But that’s a whole other topic.
I don’t think that I can add anything insightful to your post, in which you have explained the situation with great clarity. I can, however, post a comment!
To your knowledge, is the situation similar with regard to non-erotic writing?
I think it might be, although not to the same extent. But one of the things I think has occurred is that, and I’m generalizing here, because there ARE some good publishers out there, but the middle-men in the culture market – both in the text and music industries have become bean counters who don’t love what they trade in. It’s not about the work for them, it’s about instantaneous profit. That kills the evolution of almost any cultural industry.
Just a thought…perhaps the readers have a resistance to paying for anything sexually consumable? I haven’t thought that theory out at all but I will.
What argues against that is that visual porn is big business. On the other hand, perhaps the kind of people who might prefer to read their smut with a little substance are exactly the sort of people who have problems owning up to it? Who knows. Nonetheless, I guess I didn’t make my point if it seems that I was complaining about the money.
RG, I’m here, as always to read you, you have a valid point.
Where possible, when a writer that I read online publishes, either for download or print, I will buy.
Of course I cannot buy everything.
I have always admired your writing, I’ve said so several times.
Let me know when you publish and where and I will buy.
Warm hugs,
Paul.
PS I’m here straight from Oatmeal Girl.
This was certainly NOT a plea for anyone to purchase my writing. It was an attempt to open the discussion on how we value cultural product. Perhaps the fact that money is a factor is exactly where the problems lie.
Your comments made me think. (I have no higher compliment) I think the reason I don’t buy erotica is that I don’t buy many books, period. Usually only in secondhand stores, and never online.
Second, I have only been in one bookstore large enough to have an erotica section. Are there other avenues for obtaining erotica that I don’t know about?
Third, my usual method for determining books to read is a verbal recommendation. Not only would I find it difficult, I think, to have this discussion within my own social circle, I doubt their tastes would line up with mine. (You never know though.)
However, RG, if you were to review or recommend erotica, I would trust your judgment, and certainly try to obtain these books. I have oftentimes mourned that I had no sexy book to cuddle up with in bed, but I HATE kissing frogs when I buy books.
And I will forever comment when I have something of value to add. Thank you for your gift.
I’m not asking you to buy a book. The comments are fine for me. I’ll be really honest, I don’t read a lot of erotica myself. There are a couple of writers who I love and would read anything they wrote, but on the whole, I think a great deal of the erotica that is currently being published is crap. So hey, I say…look at my links. There are a LOT of good writers there. Go and read some of their work, and comment. It makes our hearts sing.
My thoughts on this are very simple, As you know I have been published twice in my life. Once in a college literary Magazine and self published recently. Never paid a cent and guess what the compliments both time is a high that can’t be beat. So for me it is the comments that are important. Money would be nice, but I would probably spend on wine a woman and a song. The rest I would blow.
So comment you fools and make the author feel good.
It is amazing how feedback from readers can wash away so much doubt about the time and effort it takes to produce a story.
I write erotica because I like writing sexy stories. I’ve dipped my toes in other markets, and probably will continue to do so, but I know I will always come back to this explicit, steamy, dripping passion.
And I will admit, I’m not as good about leaving comments as I should be. You have converted me, RG. I will be better about commenting on stories I read.
Thank you for all your wonderful stories, and your insightful post.
And thank you for yours. Your last story, May, at ERWA is fucking outstanding. Dark, wonderful. For the rest of you, please go and read it. http://www.erotica-readers.com/GD/TC-EF/May.htm
Certainly no shortage of comments here, at least. I mostly write poetry, and I can assure you the problems are identical in this and a great many other realms of writing. Even writing pulp novels – there may be thousands of them, but consider how many more wannabe pulp novelists there are whose work isn’t picked up.
30 hours for a 4k story makes you pretty damn fast. I’ve probably spent that long on a 30 line poem at times. And even if you do get one published, you score 50 or 60 bucks, like you said. Writers are never valued, it seems, despite how important they are. I read a great line recently: “Poetry may not save civilisation, but it’s the reason why civilisation is worth saving.”
So we have to decide that there are other rewards more valuable to us than financial ones. I was writing on this just a week or two ago, though I got confused and started talking about biscuits: http://heathenscripture.wordbuzz.com.au/2009/12/29/mystery-kingstons/
It doesn’t surprise me that you have spent that long on a 30 line poem. Poetry is a different beast and the matter of word choice, cadence, tone, internal rhyme, etc. means that you spend a lot more time on every word you write and how they fit relationally both in sound and meaning. I figure that, when I grow up, I’ll probably be ready to write poetry.
I think that the etiiquette of commenting is still evolving. And different writers have different preferences.
I love when someone comments on my blog, which is mostly biography rather than fiction. But it still takes time to write and post. And while I like to think that I write for myself, I like it less when no one comments.
Thanks for your post. It’s a good reminder to comment especially when we like something.
Hello sin,
I think there isn’t a writer alive who doesn’t first write for themselves. You have to satisfy your own goals before you feel ready to let others see it.
However, I am wary of writers who say that they ONLY write for themselves. I think this is often a defensive mechanism against outside criticism. Obviously people who post their work, whether fictional or autobiographical, up on the net, do it so that others can read it. Otherwise, they’d write it and put it in a drawer, or just keep it in their heads and not write it at all. Writing is, above all, a form of communication – with a sender and a receiver.
OTOH, I vehemently disagree with the other extreme that says that you should write solely for the reader. To do that is to be a whore – in the wrong way. It is to lose personal integrity in your writing.
I think there is a middle way: to write with a view to addressing humanity as a whole, and to address issues from a universal angle. This allows you to both write for yourself and others. It allows you to be open to criticism by readers, but it also allows you to do so from a place where your personal decisions on whether you act upon that critique are considered, and entirely yours.
RG, you are very eloquent in your prose. Thank you for the entertainment.
I’m sorry! I’ve reading your stories for a while now but never commented. Just assumed you wouldn’t care how lil ol me felt. Will not make that mistake in the future.
I do SO love your stories, I think you are very talented and do appreciate all your hard work.
Thank you so much,
Tina
Then I’m thoroughly glad I wrote this post and brought you out of your shell. Because there are no writers without readers. Readers don’t just complete the cycle of literary production – they are the engine that drives new work.
Do twitter DMs count as comments/feedback?
I loved both parts of Bequeathed & and I think I told you too. 
I don’t know how I chanced upon them but they were the first stories I read of yours and I loved them.
I am not into erotica at all, as a reader. But I do enjoy the way you write, RG, your style of writing is very earthy and real, not something far fetched and ridiculous. Anyone else writing about an amorous ghost I would have laughed.
Excellent point made in this post, I do agree that as writers, as human beings, validation is what we seek. Money, love, fame or compliments (a cup of coffee?)
And for those worried about others finding out, just leave it in the name of Jane or Jean Doe.
I have just been generally shy of commenting anywhere, but I am getting better now, so hope you don’t mind.
I do hope you try your hand at more stories in other genres, not just erotica, would love to read them too.
I’m so glad you found me! Hehe. I don’t think it is likely I will write in other genres, mostly because I have a brain that frames everything through an lens of erotic desire. Erotica, like any other genre, has specific conventions, but within those conventions, there is an amazing scope. I also want to discourage people from thinking that, once they have become ‘good’ writers, they need to move away from erotica as a genre and into something more ‘legitimate. Hmmm… this needs a blog post.
Ah, it’s alright. I know what you mean when you say you cannot write outside of it. It would be the same for me, if I was asked to write horror (for eg) or erotica. I wouldn’t be able to write convincingly at all. Just curious, nevertheless!
I don’t understand why some genres are considered as practice writing ground though, or not “legitimate” especially erotica. Any genre that is well written is written well.
I am glad I stumbled upon you too.
The richness of the comments here is a comment in itself. You do a lot of good, Rgrl, for this community by provoking good thinking and building relationships–to say nothing of your wonderful writing itself.
Folks involved with erotica–writers, readers, publishers, whoever–have a lot to do to realize the real value of this work. As readers, we do need to complete the relationship with response and interaction, whether it’s being willing to pay for what we receive, as we do with other literature, or simply commenting appreciatively or critically. The encouragement I feel just knowing someone read my work is immeasurable.
There’s so much to do. I think it comes down to taking ourselves seriously (without losing the fun of it all, of course). We need an evolving philosophy of the erotic. We need discussions of the craft of writing tuned to what we do. We need collaboration, constructive criticism, real editing. We need to understand the dynamics and business of publishing in a world that comprehends everything from traditional print and individual blogging, again tuned to our unique subject matter. We need to understand the roles of such a range of writers, from fine craftspeople to folks just getting something off their chests, off their minds, out of their hearts. Uncomfortably, we need to say and hear that not everything we do is great, and work with that. We need to understand ourselves as artists, in relation to our work, other artists, our readers, and other genres. Much of this is about relationships and community–that’s surely one thing folks involved in erotica have going for them.
Thanks for prodding us.
Hi City,
I think your point about the work we have to do as participants within a genre is just excellent.
Your work is absolutely amazing…not even…you are just brilliant…for the past two years I have read your beautiful work…and was never dissappointed or bored…all your stories breath new life to me…they encourage me, motivate my fantasies and made me more selective about my erotic literature. I can’t say enough…becuase unfortunately I am not as skillful in the art of writing…but I will make more of an effort to write a comment…anything and everything too keep your work of desire going…it is the least I could do.
Ok, I am another silent reader that has been enjoying your writing for few months now. The reason I haven’t commented was mentioned here already – I felt stupid to just state that I liked the story when five people just did it before me, I felt that if I can’t say anything worthwhile, there is no point in saying anything at all. I will take your suggestion to look for something I didn’t like and comment on that. But I do like almost all of your writing, it is probably the most intelligent,rich and “psychologically true” (for lack of better term) erotica I read. I also have to thank you for giving me another writer whose work I enjoy greatly – Mike Kimera (I have found him through your site). So, thank you, and I will try to be better with feedback. You certainly deserve it!
Dear RG,
Thank you for all of your wonderful work! I’ve been reading for about a year and a half now, and I am never disappointed. Please keep up your excellent work!!
Your writing was also one of the driving inspirations in starting my own erotic/literary/rant blog, and judging from these comments, you’ve been this important (if not more so) in the lives of many, many other readers. I hope this meager pay of reader love is always enough, because we couldn’t go on without you
–Louisa
I totally agree in all of this.
1) I am also a struggling writer .. Struggling because its hard work to make great stories..
2) I do wish we could be paid better. Being paid to write Erotic smut.. Yummy
3) I get tongue tied about what to comment. I mean what can you say “Great work.. It really got me horny and simulated..” um >blush< what?
Yup, that would do fine.
My name is Moils and I am a lurker. I have been a lurker for years. I remember many of your stories that are not on this new site and miss them I might add. I’ve watched as others have been tweaked and polished, refined into a sparkling gem. I remember back when you took a break from erotic writing. I remember your story about God and man with the world as a game board. (still think about that one from time to time and ponder that you might have been right on the mark there.) Just how long have you had a blog? That would give me an indication as to how long I have been hanging out in the shadows.
I’ve read the comments as to why some of my fellow lurkers, well, for a lack of better words have just lurked.
I agree with most commenters and the why’s of it seems to be complicated. I’m sure that there are a few who are just the “user” types that read and would never give a thought to say thanks, no need to worry about them as they treat everyone they encounter like that. I truly believe they are a very small minority; to think otherwise will depress me beyond measure. That leaves the rest of us lurkers. Some of us feel frankly intimidated. You’re a damn good writer and our comments… gee, just might look inane and inadequate fraught with spelling, fragments and grammatical errors. (I’m writing this in word to check it first, just to show my paranoia.) Then, there are those of us, who adults we might be, still carry a shame, a guilt and stigma with erotica in general. We are in some cases sneaking reading it. Can’t let the kids or the vanilla spouse know what we are up to. Writing a comment means taking a step some of us frankly aren’t prepared to make. That will be acknowledging the “big elephant” in the room. You know the one? The one with the trunk that tweaks our nipples, uses it’s trunk to touch us, wiggling in past our panties, making us gasp and sigh…yea, that elephant. The very one which we have been trying REAL hard to pretend is not there at all, knowing that pretending this IS a lie… is also shameful. (Read “big elephant” as liking/reading erotica/fetish, being turned on by it, wanting to do it or have it done to you, and daydreaming one of the plots would happen to you personally.)
So that said, remember you have a whole readership who have probably hit the comment button before in the past but freaked and chickened out when the blank for the email address came up. Personally, your stories have helped me be honest with myself, to realize that maybe me feeling the shame, guilt etc is societies doing and not mine at all. To realize that I have had these desires as far back as I can remember. I did light bondage way back in middle school; yes, middle school. I wasn’t influenced by books, the internet, no pervert family members, the desire wasn’t a result of any childhood trauma. It’s just how I’m wired and that too has taken a long time to realize and accept. Your site has helped nurture that personal growth.
And one more thing, I’m a voracious reader and I take exception with the comment earlier that there is lots of good erotica out there…. NO there is not. There is lots and lots of mediocre out there. Your site is the exception. Thank you for writing for us.
moils
I stumbled upon your stories about two years ago and I keep returning because of the quality of your writing not just the wordsmithing but your commitment to exploring, repeatedly, the mysterious zone in which our consent lives and breathes. In today’s world I think erotica like you write takes on new importance because so very much of daily life is non-consensual. Can I afford to raise my own meat free of hormones, or do I mainline whatever the farms put into my breakfast, lunch, dinner (just one example). So the very notion of consent becomes highly charged, erotic. Not sure if this makes sense. Just wanted to say thank you so much.
Oh, RG! I am so sorry! I am guilty of reading your work & never commenting. I will try & do better, I promise.
I would just like to say that Beautiful Losers is some of the best writing I have ever read & I can’t wait for you to finish it. If you ever publish it in book form, I would be first in the queue to buy it. I have lost count of the number of times I’ve read it so far.
Like many other people who commented, it hadn’t occurred to me that this was symbiotic. Of course, now that you’ve put your finger on it (oh so succinctly!) I understand. Again, like others, I felt that no comment was better than something mundane. I can certainly see that even mundane is better than silence, now. Thank you for bringing this to attention, and for your writing.
Hi,
What can I say? Most of the time, here on your site, I am left speechless (breathless?). I will take greater care to express that, for I am very grateful for the places to which you take my mind.
But I do think that you raise some very challenging questions – questions about how we express value in an increasingly commodified world, but also about what our role is, as readers. In your original post, you talked about us, the reader, as “consuming” the text, and I don’t really think I’ve ever thought of reading your stories and flash fiction as consuming. There needs to be a better word to encapsulate it.
And that makes me think more generally about how we think of ourselves as readers – the whole citizen vs. consumer debate. If we’re netizens, then are we not duty bound to comment, to articulate our responses in the electronic public sphere? Habermas would say so! If we are simply consumers, then perhaps we don’t have the same responsibility…..
It’s unfortunate that money is so tightly coupled with value. In part, I think what goes on, as one of your commenters noted, is that there is so much mediocre content out there on the ‘net. Your work, in my humble opinion, is brilliant. Always. I’ve paid for erotica (compilations), and I agree that there is a moment of encounter, wherein you read something so beyond what you would expect, that makes it such a worthwhile experience. In general, I think that there’s an expectation that “published” (in the traditional sense) work is necessarily better, and obviously that’s not the case at all. It’s vital that there is heterogeneity of voices, and part of what makes blogging so important is that it facilitates that opportunity. There is so much more available – far beyond the confines of what might be considered “publishable” in the traditional sense.
I’ll shut up now, but I wanted to add my voice to the “thank you” heap – not only for raising this issue, but for challenging each of us to get up the gumption to respond to what you write. I will try to be diligent in my “oh, god, that was soooo good” comments in the future!
Hi RG. My mother once gave me a great piece of advice apropos women. She said a compliment to a woman is like a climax to a man. It sounded odd coming from my strait-laced Italian-Catholic mama, but in a funny way it goes to the heart of the working writer and what you said at the top.
“Writers get paid shit and erotic writers less than shit.” I’ve struggled for years between writing for clients, which pays when you get the gigs and writing my fiction and erotica, which so far have paid a few hundred for years of work.
How do you justify writing for the love of it when writing is all you know how to do to make a living? Unless you are fortunate enough to sell a blockbuster screenplay or a novel, the types of writing that pay largely include writing for agencies and corporations. Pharmaceutical sales videos. PowerPoints and speeches for corporate executives. Agency copywriting.
The hard work of this isn’t the writing itself, but the packaging of yourself as the right guy or gal for the job. You pray not that the client praises the little “artistic” touches you’ve snuck in; you just hope they don’t notice and cut them out. At the end of the day, you get sick of all the lies, mediocrities and half-truths you write for a payoff, but $90-$120/hr. is adult money and you need to make it. But it’s not “real” writing. It’s done for the filthy lucre, not for the love of the craft.
The true joy of real writing for me is the writing itself. Knowing you put out a piece where you did hard labor over every word, spent an entire day worrying over two or three words, how you put them together in an important sentence you’ve rewritten 20 times, knowing you know the difference your choices make, praying you made the best one, knowing you probably didn’t and another pass with some emotional distance will make it better, knowing words are like paints, like musical notes and their application can rise to the level of art.
With apologies to the erotica writers who go in for dragons, wizards, aliens and yes
vampires, the art in erotica, in your erotica comes from the lives of real people, laid open in all their human desires, flaws, wounds and kinks, people the writer, then the reader, sees themselves falling in love with, fucking, breaking up with, sees a piece of themselves in.
Of course, as Mom would say, albeit in a different context, “the compliment is nice too.”
I’ve been off making a living with the lords of commerce. A lot of strange dark things brew in my head as I sit in dim edit suites and too-bright meeting rooms, talking about writing stuff I only pretend to care about. The former makes the latter tolerable. When the paying business gets slow, another pitfall of the working writer, the dark ponies come out to trot.
Allow me my fantasy that someday the pay differential between the two will even out and I’ll be able to tell all my future former clients, sorry, I don’t do that sort of work anymore, I’m writing my bliss and maybe yours too.
So yeah, keep after your bliss. And check out my blog. Leave a comment if so inclined. You’ve been inspirational to me in so many ways.
Baci, baci, R
I can fully understand the desire that you have for readers to respond to your stories, to not get a response is like playing to an empty hall.
I have, on occasion, commented but not as often as I would like to for a reason: I find your stories excellent, they combine the skill of good fiction in building suspense and the desire in me to want to keep reading, as any good novel or story does irrespective of the plot, and the sexual aspect generally gives me a hard on – a physical approval.
So with those facts why the lack of comment? The other respondents, or at least the bulk of them.
Take the first few comments to this post as illustration; “This is just SO spot on”, “Go girl”, “Hey darlin’”. I read a story and wish to write but the comments that range from the oozing obsequiousness to the Oprah-atic make look for something negative to say to counter-balance the gushing positiveness, but alas, there is little negative to find.
May I stick my nose into this wonderfully provocative post once more?
Reader-writer-editor-publisher-bookseller is a rich, complex constellation of relationships and transactions. Decision-making anywhere in there is seldom as simple as either (a) give the people what they want or (b) if you build it they will come. We can cut the reader some slack, but the rest of us shouldn’t oversimplify as we work together.
Rgrl, it seems to me you value the reader highly–in fact you identify the reader’s response, positive or negative, as valuation of your work when publishers and booksellers can’t offer meaningful valuation.
The business aspects of this constellation, particularly publishing and bookselling, have taken many forms, many models, over centuries. I believe we’ll evolve models that work for us–a genre transcending old limitations, in a time of amazing and challenging new technology.
Your words have touched me, in various ways and in various places. I value what you write although I could never assign it a monetary worth. I visit, I read, I leave without commenting. I can’t really say why…laziness? some strange sense of entitlement? Fear that my own wavering self esteem will take a beating simply by having my words held captive on your page for others to read?
It hit me today that this is a partnership…You write, I read…and now, I comment
Thank you!
Thank you Catherine. It doesn’t require you to say much, you know. Just Catherine Woz Here.
Dear RG
This is the first time I comment, although it is far from the first time I visit your blog. The truth bee said I have been following for, I think, 2 years now.
You never made it a secret that you want your readers to comment, but somehow I made myself believe that it didn’t really apply to me. I’m not a writer, I’m not always eloquent when writing in English and talking about my sexuality often makes me shy. So I haven’t felt qualified to say anything useful. Now this post has driven me out of the bushes because I value your work very much. I read your stories and loved them so from now on I will make an effort and try to give some sort of feedback. Thank you for writing.
It’s very nice to meet you Asta. Thank YOU for sticking your head up above the parapet and saying hello.
Everyone loves to know that people are appreciating the work you do. Especially if your work does not pay off in money as much as you’d like it to. You should set up a donations option on your site. I’d contribute. I definitely read more than my fair share of your work, and I love the hell out of it. If I think this way, I’m sure others do as well. Think about it.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Comments feed the spirit. Writing fills a need for me, but comments make the writer happy. Nothing like a “good girl” to get the muse working …
nilla
Most erotica I’ve come across isn’t worth paying for. (The same can be said of any genre, of course.) I’d buy yours though.
♥ Ash
You obviously hit a nerve with this post. Like many writers I’ve been pondering how to cope with a world where 99% of creative work is essentially valued at nil.
There are areas where writing is decently paid – greeting card messages, some copywriting, some journalism/feature writing, TV/film, and the area where I make most of my income, commercial training materials. But in terms of the writing I most enjoy, which is my fiction, I have yet to be paid more than £50 for 1250 words (roughly 0.5 cents/word).
I can see several possibilities. One is to treat work published for free as leverage to get the kind of reputation that brings commissions, or at least paid gigs like participating in convention discussion panels, readings etc. – though I have to say the last reading I did was a free gig that runs on an off-night in a local theatre. Another is to get work anthologised once original rights expire, because books still sell (though I note from earlier comments this raised some arguments). A third is to self-publish as print on demand, though this leaves you to handle your own marketing. A fourth is to sell material that is ‘value added’ through illustrations, audio versions, and other formats that mostly require some kind of collaborative process.
As to marketing. In the virtual world, I think networking is the way to market. Writers use blog sites to build interest in their work – as indeed you’ve done here! In the real world, much as painters and sculptors have done over at least the last couple of centuries, maybe a way forward is to create ‘movements’ and start making noise about them. Organising writers is like herding cats, I know, but it’s not a lot different to organising any other group of imaginative and capable people…
How much we all need appreciation…..
You are a great writer RM and a great craftsman. But it’s clear you write for the connection you make with us as participants in your rich, created , dark world.
Just finished reading Breach of Trust (as far as it went..) Brilliant – as usual. Just found myself watching it as a screen play for a 4 part BBC series. Can see it unfold now. ( Perhaps that is where your work can be best apprecaited.)
The issue of payment, real payment for writers skills is perennial. It goes without saying that the biggest cheques generally go to the most banal writers. Quality just doesn’t sell enough. There simply arn’t enough people to appreciate it and our society is resolutely dumbing down its citizens to ensure that stupidity becomes the norm. ( i loved your response to Diesels little piece of mischief..)
Take care..