> but it’s awful easy to judge what we feel, rather than simply accept our feelings.

That is precisely what I was saying. The feelings of women who dislike oral sex are not accepted at all these days. The pressure from males and peer pressure from female friends “to do the bit for him” is enormous.

> Generally if something is ubiquitous in fiction, it’s likely not that common in real life, wouldn’t you agree?

No I don’t agree. Statistics, both generalised and my own, state differently. BJs are these days more common than vaginal intercourse, 12 and 13 year old girls engage in it, and not necessarily because they want to. Oral sex is regarded almost as “second base” by now, as safer sex (which it isn’t) and as a means of contraception. It is being expected.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2008/05/oral_is_normal.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/16/health/16iht-sex.html?_r=0

This is dated a bit regarding the STD situation, but has a similar set of reactions to oral sex to what I meet with so often:

http://www.brown.uk.com/brownlibrary/ORAL.htm

> It’s disheartening to hear the girls/women you talk to take no pleasure from an act of giving pleasure to their partner.

I beg your pardon ? Why should a girl or a woman take pleasure in or from a detested act which just happens to be hot for the recipient? Replace oral sex for instance with eating the crap of her partner (which also gives pleasure to a lot of very kinky people, but I’m not talking of those) and you get closer to my completely flabbergasted reaction here!

So far, and I don’t think I will change my opinion in this regard, I was working under the premise that sex should be a mutually satisfying and pleasurable thing and that we all should get away from the notion of women having to sexually service men. Why should women play the Florence Nightingales of sex and “give pleasure” to men through something many find boring (at best) or downright unpleasant (at worst)?

Having something inserted in one’s mouth which tastes from bland to vile, depending on personal hygiene and state of health and habits, and which in itself is no pleasant activity, is not high on the scale of enjoyment for so many women, even women forcing themselves to give BJs, that you’d be astonished. So why should they do that? There are enough alternatives, some of which are bound to be pleasant for both parties.

> A lack of trust and lack of truly caring for your partner.

What has trust to do with it? While I agree that, if one doesn’t find something entirely abhorrent, an occasional “treat” to a partner who also engages in occasional reverse treats is quite in order, that’s not what I was talking about.

If the “treat” becomes something the partner expects as a regular service to him, rather in that very patriarchal manner you stated further above, then I begin to feel disquieted by such a mindset. The problem is that these days there’s a sense of entitlement to having BJs from your girlfriend, regardless of whether or not she wants to give them or likes giving them. Where, by the way, is that partner’s “true caring” when he more or less blackmails or even forces a sexual practice on his girlfriend that she dislikes?

I find your perspectives a bit perplexing.

Waldo, you say “I’m a bit oldfashined I guess or maybe it is the massive voyeur in me who would rather see my “work’s reaction” than sit back and close my eyes.” I take this to mean you prefer to see the reaction in your wife when having sex, no? That you enjoy seeing her pleasured by you? Wouldn’t that also possibly be her perspective when giving you pleasure?

Anne, I get what you’re saying in general, but there seems to be a conflation of issues, “muddying the waters” so to speak. Fantasy, legalities, social norms. Yes, they’re all related inasmuch as they inform our own inner dialogue and conflicts, but it’s awful easy to judge what we feel, rather than simply accept our feelings. (Isn’t that one of the points in this story?)

It seems pretty obvious the reasons that forced oral appears so much in fiction, and especially with d/s – physical positioning infers submission/deference, clear giver/receiver, control, power, infrequency, etc.

Generally if something is ubiquitous in fiction, it’s likely not that common in real life, wouldn’t you agree? People tend to fantasize about what they *don’t* have, not what they *do* have. This would then seem to contradict the idea that oral sex is currently de rigueur, would it not?

It’s disheartening to hear the girls/women you talk to take no pleasure from an act of giving pleasure to their partner. To me, that speaks of a deeper issue than the act itself. A lack of trust and lack of truly caring for your partner. Sounds like the relationships aren’t very deep or meaningful. If so, then who cares, it’s just a “hookup” then and “has no meaning”.

And let’s be careful about extrapolating what occurs in the larger culture from what occurs in young adult relationships. Frankly I think we’re all mostly clueless before about 30 or so! LOL

I do hope I’ve come across reasonably, without sounding critical. Please don’t think I’m criticising or condemning anyone…it’s all been very insightful. Thanks.

RG…excellent writing. Thank you, and keep up the good work and the interesting discussions in the comments.

Your reply to Anne back on June 30 was spot on. Although at the same time as agreeing with you completely it brought a chuckle to my throat, (sucking cock has been mythologized in such a manner as to make you believe that women have clits in their mouths:That’d be Deep Throat a film which I’ve never actually seen and now I’m doubting the level of my education)you strike me as a very inteligent woman and I wonder do you have the same problem as me in trying to comprehend why the general population buys in wholesale to these pandered cliches.

Personally I am a fan of oral sex in both directions (very difficult (pun avoided) to see a boy not being a fan and one assumes the reverse is really dependant on the provider), no idea really if I’m any good seeing as you all fake it which falls into the same category as 3% of men don’t masturbate, but I am enthusiastic, damn, I’m rambling (I tend to do that, maybe I should just c&p and put this on my blog), it is the idea of the deep throat! Never tried it oddly enough (see level of education?)but I can’t even manage a Brioche that’s less than five inches long (and I’m renowned for not having a gag reflex to speak of (whole ‘nother story))so I have always been astounded that outside of the Porn hyperbole that women don’t just gag but would/should follow the gag reaction. !!!

As I said and Waldo quoted your material will be permeating through society

Why is the hyperbolizing and decontextualization of cock so persuasive?— brilliant, who’d of thought you could decontextualize a cock.

And possibly my favourite— That’s why I think Vogue and Porn are pretty much the same thing.

That one’s going to get pleanty of use.

Oh.. a very well written story all the same.

FtF