Will Crimson and Raziel Moore (who both post on the blog Erotic Writer) are the editors for Burning Book Press’ upcoming anthology, Best Men’s Erotica. I invited them to answer some questions on the specific of men’s erotica, and what makes it different from erotica for women.
What do you think distinguishes erotica written for men from erotica written for women?
Will Crimson:
However, with that disclaimer out of the way (and with a gun held to my head), I would say that erotica written for men will focus more on the physical act of sex rather than the emotional content. A man doesn’t necessarily want to know how the slave girl feels when she’s being fucked. He wants writing that will evoke his pornographic imagination. What position is the slave girl in? What kinds of sounds does she make? What does she do when she orgasms? Does she scream? Cry? Pant? Shake? Stretch? Arch? Madly kiss the man fucking her? Men, I think, are much more visually oriented than women. One can quickly see this by what kinds of erotica are being written and read by men on sites like SOL or ASSTR. There’s little if any interest in the emotional content or consequence of sex. The stories are simply loud and orgiastic descriptions of fucking. The stories are meant to evoke the pornography of sex. The women in these stories are simply the vehicle of the expression of male sexual desire and nothing more.
That said, women are the primary consumers of erotica. In very bookstore, there’s the romance section — a euphemism for “Erotica for Women”. There is definitely explicit erotica sex in these stories, but the emphasis, shallow and simplistic though it may be, is on the emotional content and consequences of sex and desire. Erotica for women is all about context. Where is the sex happening? Who is it happening with? What does he say to her? What does he do to her? How does he do it? *Why* does he do it? What is the meaning of the sex? Women also enjoy physical description and pornographic picture making, but they like those descriptions to have a meaning within the larger narrative – think Romance.
Raziel Moore:
Much, and perhaps most erotica written for men today doesn’t have a great deal of respect for men’s intellect and complexity, and assumes that most men are looking for a good stroke story that twig’s their personal kinks hard and fast. Thinking of that, I started answering this with a listing of what I think most “men’s erotica” lacks in trying to cater to its intended audience. But that’s not as useful as trying to examine what the best of these kinds of stories does, so I’m going to try that, and distinguish, perhaps arbitrarily, erotica vs written porn for the male reader.
Erotica ‘for men’ makes the attempt to engage us beyond simple stimulation. These stories, perspectives, and situations help us understand and experience by proxy the flavors of male desire, appreciation, and conflict in and around sex. Men’s headspace is no less complex than women’s, and the negotiation between a man’s desire and actions are not always easy, or linear, and do not always have predictable results. I think erotica for men, at its best can show the reader (male or female), not “what men want” but what different men _think_ about want; stories that are not so much what men do, but what drives a men to act certain ways. The best of men’s erotica can show how men churn over their thoughts and desires and translate them into words and actions, and how those all impact them and those around them. Erotica for men, even if it’s not written by a man, or from a male POV, centers around the male identity in the erotic state.
Not that that discounts the physical. The male sexual experience is different from the female, and the masculine sensory lexicon and engagement with physicality is different. I think the best writing shows that as well, and can communicate the male experience even too those without the same equipment and different drives.
Could you speak a little about male erotic authors whose work you find engaging?
Will Crimson:
In all honesty, I have *always* preferred erotica by women (and for all the reasons given above). I like erotica that has context and emotional resonance (even in the shortest of stories). That said, the whole reason The Erotic Writer got started is because of Raziel. No male’s erotic writing consistently engages me the way Raziel’s writing did or does. I enjoy short forms and Raziel is a skilled writer of short-form fiction. He brings a poet’s succinctness to his work. He also gets context in a way that’s imaginative and even fantastical. He gets erotic tension, and can write about the erotic experience that appeals to me reminds me of my own writing and the reasons I enjoy writing erotica. Other than that, I can’t think of a single male erotic writer by name. I used to read erotic paperbacks, on occasion, but I usually found them too generic (probably because of the reluctance of publishers to offend).
Raziel Moore:
I think there are a fair number of excellent male writers out there, who engage me in the ways described above. Mike Kimera is one of those writers who compels, engages, and sometimes disturbs me. His characters and perspectives draw me in and keep hold through intense, arousing, and sometimes very rough rides. Sadly he doesn’t write erotica anymore. Chris Garcia goes deep into the interior spaces of his male characters. These characters whether fanciful, or not, are extremely real. My blog partner Will Crimson dives deeply into some of the primal, so-simple-as-to-be-sophisticated aspects of masculinity, and the feedbacks of male-female desire – there’s a reason we became partners in a writing blog, after all. There are more; The Provocateur, Guy New York, M. Christian, and others. Hopefully we’ll be able to introduce readers to some of them in BME.
Do you think the difference between male oriented and female oriented erotic fiction is a matter of nature or nurture?
Will Crimson:
Setting aside issues that pertain to talent, education and cultural influences (nurture), I would definitely say that there are real and recognizable differences between male and female writers and readers (nature). Our biological differences are apparent in the different kinds of literary and visual erotica that we pursue. However, there is a sweet spot where our desires intersect and intertwine, and the best writers and videographers, in my opinion, are the ones that have a natural feeling for that sweet spot. That’s erotica at its finest, in my opinion. That sweet spot is a biological necessity. Without it, men and women would never find a common ground. We wouldn’t be sexually attracted to each other. We would have gone extinct a long time ago.
Raziel Moore:
I think it’s a bit of both. The male sexual nature is pneumatically different from female. Our senses are wired similarly, but have crucial, often complimentary differences in nuance. Much (though certainly not all) male sexual physicality is ultimately penetrative, and I think that absolutely informs a fundamental attitude toward erotic acts, and toward how men think and read about them. On the other hand, a huge amount of erotic fiction aimed at men seeks to engage _only_ the physical layer, ignoring layers of nuance and emotion that are more often in greater focus in female oriented erotica. In that way, the contemporary ‘nurture’ environment actually channels and limits male-oriented erotic fiction into a pretty narrow, and ultimately unfulfilling band.
Do you think the easy availability of visual pornography helps or hinders in the number of male erotica readers?
Will Crimson:
I don’t think it matters. If porn weren’t available, then there would certainly be a broader market for erotica; but “visual erotica” has always been available in one form or another. On a recent Radiolab (NPR), archaeologists were discussing a 10,000 year old trash dump (a mound that was, itself, a site with 10,000 years worth of garbage). Buried in that mound were thousands of sheaves of ancient paper. Some were, predictably, religious: Sayings of Jesus. Interestingly, they also found long lost erotic literature — something, annoyingly, few articles comment on.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/04/0425_050425_papyrus_2.html
However, whatever this piece of erotic fiction was, it was the most popular work of literature in the dump.You can hear about it here:
http://nhpr.org/programs/radiolab
It’s exactly 17 Minutes into the story. The erotica begins:
“Oh, I’m terribly on fire. Uh oh, it’s thick and big as a roof beam. I’m burning, I’m on fire. I’m terribly on fire. A stream runs over me, do you understand?”
That’s erotica, possibly by a woman, loving the same things that we love today, thousands of years ago — a big, thick cock. Isn’t that cool? Human beings *love* their erotic lives. Hopefully, we’ll get to read more of this erotica from ancient Egypt and Greece.
Back to your question: No. I think that male readers who are interested in erotica, will read it. It’s another kind of fetish, in a way, and those men who like it, will find it. Those who are more visually oriented, will always be so and find a way to express that, whether through sculpture, paintings or otherwise.
Raziel Moore:
I think visual pornography may be a wash. For the viewer that wants only stimulation, a wank, a grin, and job done, visual porn may well short circuit any reading, or suggest a reading list that stops at Penthouse Letters or the like. Some of these viewers may get jaded to the whole genre and not give deeper erotica a chance, but then some of them may be driven to want more after having their fill of the simplistic and plastic. Those who wonder what more there is besides fleshy pistoning and theatrical moans a could be the next wave of readers and writers.
What are you looking for in the Best Men’s Erotica entries in terms of approach?
Will Crimson:
Not just fuck stories, but self-awareness — awareness of ones own masculinity, how ones masculinity attracts a woman, persuades her to have sex, brings her to orgasm and influences her view of that connection afterward. Alternately, what is it about masculinity that makes a woman want to seduce a man? What is it that she is willing to surrender to or, alternately, what vulnerability (in masculinity) does she savor and want to seduce? What *is* it about the masculine that *works* for women? What do women see in the masculine and what do men enjoy about their own masculinity? How does their masculinity define their understanding of the feminine? Do they see the feminine as something to subdue? Do women see the masculine as something to submit to? What about when those relationships are reversed? What does it mean to be a masculine submissive?
These are all questions which deserve an answer, even if only provisional one. What is masculine sexual energy and how is that used to attract the feminine — and what does the feminine pursue in it and want from it?
Raziel Moore:
For BME, I want to see inside the male characters’ heads – either directly through POV, or through the illumination of action and perceptions from the narrative. Beyond physical sensation, or want, or hunt, or conquest, are the thoughts, desires, and conflicts that drive them. Even the simplest, most vanilla love story is _not_ simple. We don’t call it ‘stepping lightly in love’ for a reason; the man falling has a story, and I want to hear it. And men don’t operate in a vacuum. Their partner(s) or potential partners are ‘other’, but not objects (or, if they are treated as or act as objects, the “why” of that can be a whole additional layer of complexity). How does the male character’s internal circumstance manifest? How does it interact and affect that other? What is the consequence, the feedback, the ultimate change of state over the course of the story – from physical to emotional and more? That’s the kind of story I would love to read.
The call for submissions for 2013 Best Men’s Erotica is open until August 1.
Raz that’s fab. xxoo! ps: there are very few men who can write erotica. Raz does.
pss: not all women are slavegirls so fuck that noise.
Hi Valentine. My only caution in interpretation is that Will is writing mostly about what he perceives is the current status of “men’s erotica”, not his own preferences. I think, by and large, his (and my) opinion is much closer to yours.
“The stories are simply loud and orgiastic descriptions of fucking.”
Well, but you’re looking at *amateur* sites. (And even so, in my few visits to Literotica over the years, I’ve seen plenty to contradict your generalizations.) I’m sorry to post a critical comment to a colleague–I almost never do–but I’ve grown so tired of hearing the truism that “male erotica” is more physical (etc.), from people who don’t seem to have read much or any of the work of those of us who have actually been writing “male erotica” at the professional level. By your own admission, Will, you can’t name a single male erotica author other than Raziel. I recommend you read some of the male-authored stories in sundry Mammoth and Cleis anthologies before you cement your assumptions any further.
Hi Jeremy. I stand by my generalization. You could dismiss thousands of pages of sex stories as “amateur sites” if no one were reading them. The fact, though, is that hundreds of thousands are reading these stories every day, and they’re not reading them because they don’t like them. You may be “tired of hearing the truism that “male erotica” is more physical”, but there wouldn’t be a porn industry otherwise.
Also, just because I can’t think if any erotic male writers by name doesn’t mean I haven’t read their works. I just never read anything that compelled me to read more. And yes, I’ve perused nearly all the Mammoth and Cleis anthologies. In truth, there’s very little erotic literature that I like. I think most of it is dull or poorly written and I include my own works in that summation.
Thanks for the reply, Will.
I guess I was confused as to what this discussion was about. I saw an interview announced with the editors of Best Men’s Erotica, and I thought the implied topic was fine erotic literature, not the (indisputably popular) phenomenon of amateur sex-story writing.
And I apologize for wrongly assuming that you were unfamiliar with the contents of the high-profile erotica anthologies found in bookstores. I understand now that you are well-read in the field, but it’s just not a field in which you find much to enjoy. Thank you for the clarification.
You know, it’s going to sound strange coming from me, who has written well over a hundred, maybe approaching two hundred, pieces of erotica; but I am still very perplexed by the genre and remain of two minds about it. If there’s such a thing as beautifully written erotic literature (emphasis on sex), that is also about more than just sex (which I think is what distinguishes great literature) then I don’t know what that is or if it’s possible. I’d like to write it, but I don’t think I’ve done it. I look back on many, if not most, of my stories and can find them utterly trivial. Sometimes I feel like never writing another erotic story, but I keep wanting to write that one beautiful story before I quit.
I don’t believe it’s possible to discuss “fine erotic literature” without discussing ones readership, and it’s not possible to discuss a male readership without acknowledging amateur sex story writing. That is, I don’t think it’s possible to discuss “erotica written for men” without acknowledging that these sex stories are what men (probably by in large) read and enjoy. So, then the question becomes, why men? What is it that they enjoy in these stories? How do these stories differ from what women, by in large, read? How do you write fine erotic literature for this readership, or is that question irrelevant? Do you just ignore them or do you try to write something of lasting value within this space? How does a writer transform that interest in the physical into something more profound? I struggle with these questions. Maybe other writers don’t.
I do. All the time.
Well, maybe more women than men like high-quality literature (including erotica), and maybe more men than women like dumbed-down sex stories. (I have no idea–I’m just saying “maybe.” I *will* say that I suspect the purportedly majority-male audience for visual-format porn has everything to do with gender socialization, and little or nothing to do with a given gender being more inherently visual than another gender. I would have the same sort of suspicions regarding observed gender differences in general reading tastes.) But speaking for myself as an author, the bottom line is that I’m unlikely to get anywhere trying to write good literature (of any genre) for people (of any gender) who don’t like good literature. Personally, what I try to do is write good erotica for people (of any gender) who like good erotica. (All these judgments are subjective, of course–as evidenced by the fact that you, for example, think hardly anything in the best-respected erotica collections is good.) So, yes, I will certainly ignore any readership whose tastes are blatantly at odds with the literary goals that I’m invested in as a writer. I figure they don’t want me, and I don’t want them.
I also have no trouble discussing fine erotic literature without feeling obliged to discuss its readership. There’s much to remark on in the literature itself, I find, without necessarily examining the audience.
I do understand your pondering the capacity for erotic literature to successfully transcend the physical. (I happen to think it can and frequently does, but that’s just me.) In my opinion, this is not a specifically male-related issue. Men and women, we are all carnal animals with hungry minds.
My argument isn’t that women innately prefer high quality literature, but that men respond to visual cues far more than women. Perhaps that leads men to read “dumbed down sex stories”, but I don’t doubt that most men would prefer high quality literature if it offered a similar reward. Also, this far into the 21rst century, there’s simply too much evidence — and science — (let alone life experience) to suggest that gender differences are due to socialization. For example:
“The emotion control center of the brain, the amygdala, shows significantly higher levels of activation in males viewing sexual visual stimuli than females viewing the same images, according to a Center for Behavioral Neuroscience study led by Emory University psychologists Stephan Hamann and Kim Wallen.”
If you want to find the source, just Google the quote.
As to whether one can discuss fine erotic literature without reference to its readership, remember that this whole subject began with the question: “What do you think distinguishes erotica written for men from erotica written for women?” How do you propose answering that question without reference to the men and women who do the reading? Your argument, on the face of it, would seem to suggest that there’s no purpose in a best male anthology because, in your opinion, good erotica is good erotica. If that’s the point you’re making, then so be it. After all, maybe you’re right?
Thanks for the pointer to Hamann and Wallen. That’s an interesting finding, though it’s hard to form an opinion on its credibility without seeing the full report (with all the methodology, etc.). My first thought is that a twenty-eight-subject study doesn’t necessarily seem adequate for any conclusive information. (I’m just a layperson, though, when it comes to that stuff, so I claim no expertise.)
I agree that one can’t answer a question about writing for a readership without discussing the readership. When you said one couldn’t discuss fine erotic literature without discussing the readership, I took it as an absolute, but now I understand how you meant it with regard to the context of the interview question. Thank you for clarifying.
And I am definitely not saying there’s no point to a BME book. Even if that were my opinion, which it isn’t, I would keep my mouth shut, as it’s not my place to come here and say that, and to do so would be not only inappropriate but unkind. I did originally think the concept had more to do with erotica *expressing* sexuality from male points of view than with erotica catering specifically to male *readers* (not that the two are unrelated or mutually exclusive, of course), and the former aspect interested me–which is why I showed up here in the first place. Nonetheless, though I personally don’t write for a particular gender, I’m not making any sweeping statement against other authors writing with a particular gender in mind: my criticisms were about the specific assumptions as to what a particular gender wants.
Thank you for taking the time to discuss all this with me. Best of luck with the project.
If all I had were that study, then I would readily agree with you. Twenty-eight subjects isn’t conclusive; but it’s one among a continuum of studies and more general anecdotes that all paint the same picture. Another source you might enjoy — Google Testosterone and “This American Life”. This will take you to a pod cast. Listen to the part about the woman who undergoes a sex change and begins taking Testosterone. First, it’s hilarious; but it’s also extremely revealing as concerns the ways our masculine and feminine body chemistries clearly and divergently affect our consciousness.
Besides that, I think you have an interesting perspective. If you’re ever tempted, why not write a post for our blog about what you’ve learned as an erotic writer. It could be about yourself or about the art of writing. I’ve been inviting others, but so far no one besides RG has responded.
“…most erotica written for men today doesn’t have a great deal of respect for men’s intellect and complexity…”
YES! That drives me crazy. Hell, in almost all of pop-culture men are routinely portrayed as helpless dolts.
Men are brilliant creatures and I look forward to reading this one.
I should leave the critiquing of the continuum of studies to those who are better qualified and have access to all the relevant journals.
As far as anecdotal reports go–for what they’re worth–I’ll just say that the typical response of the female colleagues I’ve heard on the subject of the “women aren’t as visual” claim has been to raise their eyebrows in bewilderment, shake their heads in amazement–and then return to their favorite naked-man (and sometimes naked-woman) photo sites.
And thanks for the invitation. I usually avoid blog-posting these days, for a variety of reasons, but I’ll think it over.
There is a stigma for men…men are thought to watch porn, not read erotica…not an easy audience to get at all.
Stranded
What a load of rubbish.
Dear “David”
What kind of asshole leaves this kind of comment? No discussion, no insight, no nothing but a made-up name and a fake email address.
And what kind of vacuous, miserable life you must lead that you’d bother to ‘rubbish’ a discussion you don’t even want to participate in.
What a sad little fuck you must be.
Don’t know if I can contribute anything useful here, but I’ll try. I have never tried to write for men in particular. According to my Twitter Home I offer ‘literary erotica for gentle souls’, and the truth is that I expect to find ‘gentle souls’ more frequently among women than among men. I don’t know if that expectation is valid; there is no way for me to be certain.
At the age of 64, I am writing with a concept of men that was shaped in ‘different times’ to the present, which sees men as essentially focused on acquisition, on fast cars, fast horses, fast guns and fast women, men who defined themselves in my younger adult life essentially as ‘breadwinners’ for the ‘little wife at home’, defined themselves by the salary they earned, the model of car and size of home they owned, by the success of their sports team and their individual capacity for booze.
Writing with such ‘breadwinners’ in mind would be impossible for me. Have they changed?
Do they actually think more than they used to, question more than they used to? Are they more open, now, to other ideas, less inclined to cling to their prejudices and bigotries? I don’t know, but I don’t get the feeling that they have. So they’re not my chosen audience.
I write, I think, to counter oppression, and for the oppressed. Men have been long oppressed but, it seems to me, have come to see the signs of oppression as things of value they want to hold on to. Women, gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, people of colour and many others have been oppressed, but at least they are aware of it.
Sorry. Very tired. This may well be a load of bollocks.
Nothing you write is ever a load of bollocks, Richard.
This discussion has been fascinating. Thanks, Remittance Girl, for enabling it.
I’m a little backward: As a female writer, I’ve found that writing from a male point of view is freeing: evidence that I’ve done it well is in my fan mail. I should say that it was a gay male genre, but it was male. I would agree that through several decades, sociological research supports that men are – sexually speaking – in fact wired differently. Increasingly, medical evidence points to there being a chemical, biological difference. For me personally, that’s a settled question.
Speaking more from an empirical, personal perspective, I find men to be freer, sexually. I know that young women don’t want to hear there are differences, and certainly don’t want to hear that there is any male advantage (although for myself there are also female advantages to offer balance), but my 58 years of life has confirmed to me many times that men are more comfortable, on average, with being sexual. They tend not to apologize to themselves – or anyone else. One might say they own their sexuality. Again, women might raise their hackles at that statement, but I’m often confused, amused, and saddened when I hear my adult female contemporaries discuss sex – they are uncomfortable and it comes out in all sorts of odd ways. Usually, they end up being silly, or lewd, or crude, because they don’t know how to just be sexual and own it. There are some good women writers of erotica, to be sure, but a lot of it ends up either sounding immature with little understanding of either real sex or real men (that may be because I’m older than the average writer – who may or may not be old enough to have experienced much sex as she’s writing about it), being anatomically incorrect (yep), or just being infused with a sort of hesitancy to all-out tell a sex story. Men aren’t shy about that.
One fan told me he liked my writing because it contained a real love of men. He’s right. I love men. I love how they think, how they have sex. I envy them their freedom. I think the day we produce women in this society who feel that same ownership of sexuality is a long way off. Maybe we’ll never get there, because – again the PC crowd will hate this fact – girls deal with pregnancy in a far more extensive and intimate fashion than a man ever does. And a woman alone with a man sexually is generally in a physically vulnerable situation, given average body strength. That sense of being overpowered is something a woman cannot divorce her sexual reality from. It’s erotic to feel that, and it’s … well, vulnerable, and can be intimidating. Sex will always be more dangerous for a woman at some visceral, primal level. And so of course, the story is different. It has to be.
When I write sex between men, it ends up romantic and very physical, and unapologetically predatory in a subtle way. I have written a few unpublished pieces that are hetero – both flowed from a male perspective (well, it worked for Tolstoy and others, after all, to write from the opposite gender). I don’t know how I feel about them. They are very…. male. Very visual, light on the sentimental. I fear they might be more on the road to porn than erotica, if the difference is a hard difference (God, excuse that pun!) They are… honest. And always, that sense of ownership of one’s sexual expression, without apology. I think I need to tweak and practice and find a tone and rhythm, but I’m working toward more hetero works. (The gay genre ones are more literary by genre, with strong elements of explicit sex; the newer ones are straight up erotica.)
I find it rather sad that men do more visual porn, buy less written erotica/porn. Is that because it isn’t being written up to par? Or is it because they want to jerk off more than emote to some teary-eyed romantic hero? I don’t know. If we are doing something wrong as authors I wish we could find the formula. Because I find so much beautiful about men and their experience – literature needs to do that justice.
I offer all this in hopes someone might find it interesting. Thanks for an interesting blog, guys.